Last updated on March 1, 2013
One argument being used quite frequently against nuclear power here in NPYP’s home country Sweden is this:
If we do not allow uranium to be mined in Sweden, we cannot have nuclear power since it would be immoral to let people in other nations take the devastating environmental impact of the uranium mining.
This argument is flawed in many ways, which will take some time to get to the bottom with, so let me first summarize where the argument goes wrong:
- Unlike what is being hinted, we do not have a ban against mining uranium in Sweden.
- Uranium mining does not have a higher environmental impact other mining other minerals.
- We import other produce, products and commodities to Sweden as well, most of which like uranium are not locally produced.
First I should say that this argument is not actually used against nuclear power per se but rather being thrown in the face of proponents of nuclear power trying to mark them as hypocrites. This is a type of ad hominem attack, that is to say you’re not attacking a person’s arguments but instead the person itself in order to try to win the debate by default. This is, of course, a very dishonest and cheap way of doing debate.
Anyway… on to the flawed reasoning behind the argument.
Like I said, we do not have a ban on uranium mining in Sweden. What we have is a right for municipal councils to veto uranium extraction in that municipality. We do not have a general ban on uranium mining in Sweden. This means that unless the target of the argument has said that we should have a general ban on uranium mining in Sweden, the argument is dead in the water right there.
The second fault of the argument is to assume that uranium mining has a severe impact which causes unacceptable damage to people and the environment, and that uranium mining is worse than everything else. This too is wrong. All mining, no matter what you are extracting, can have quite a hefty impact and be very detrimental to both worker health and the surrounding environment if it is not done with care and caution. Indeed historical mining all the way up to the 70’s and 80’s have had severe problems with this.
Current mining in the early 2000’s however is different, and has all the protection and monitoring techniques needed to live up to any modern worker-, population- and environment protection standard out there. This includes uranium mining.
To illustrate by example: a Swedish miner in the LKAB iron mines in the 70’s received an accumulated yearly dose of radiation that was approximately 2000% higher than what an Australian uranium miner receives today.
It is simply just not true that we cannot do uranium mining without protecting people and the environment. We have all the tools that are needed. This still means that we have to ensure that they are used, of course, but they do exist.
The final leg of the flawed argument is the general notion that we cannot consume or use anything which we ourselves are not producing domestically, lest someone will call us hypocrites. This one is just plain stupid, because all I need to do is lift my eyes and look around me where I’m sitting to realize that not much of what I have in my room or indeed in my life, is produced domestically.
Take for instance metal, since that is produced in a nearly identical manner to uranium, which is to say: first you mine it from the ground, then you refine it. Metal is an integral part of our lives. Metal is all around us: in our computers, our furniture, appliances, jewelry, buildings, eating utensils, cars, keys, phones, power lines, wind turbines, water dams… there is metal just about everywhere.
Now I ask you, who use immense amounts of metal: are you prepared to have an iron mine in your back yard, with all the pollution and environmental hazards this implies? Are you prepared to have a steel mill as your next door neighbour with all the coal being burned in the furnaces to refine iron to steel?
You’re not? Well how can you be using all this metal then! Doesn’t that make you a hypocrite, just dumping all these environmental problems on someone else so you can sit there and read this very article on your metal-laden computer and its screen?
Of course you’re not a hypocrite. Or… maybe you are! How do you know you’re not? When was the last time you took the time to check that all the goods you’re using has been produced in a way that does not affect some other person or persons in an unacceptable manner? All this metal around you was once extracted from the ground in a mine. How do you know no-one suffered ill effects from this? How do you know that your lifestyle has not caused an environmental disaster somewhere?
With this you realize that you cannot go around and worry like that or you’d have to give up living altogether. There has to be a better way to deal with this issue than just saying no to everything that potentially caused problems when it was produced. And there is.
The ethics of importing goods, or indeed simply using goods produced by anyone other than myself, is a universal issue and it does not apply only to uranium. Uranium is not a special case and is subject to the same considerations as everything else (and then some more, since it is a controlled substance). And unsurprisingly, the Swedish nuclear companies does indeed have strict rules to abide by when it comes to seeing to that the uranium used in Swedish nuclear reactors have been produced in a sound manner that does not harm people or the environment in an unacceptable manner.
So in the end, does the argument turn those that do not want to have a uranium mine in their back yard but still want nuclear power into hypocrites? Does the argument successfully render their stance for nuclear power null and void? Must we produce uranium domestically just to have nuclear power?
No, we do not. It is a narrow-minded, simplistic and silly argument. The issue of assuring that the things which we use and consume in our lives are produced in an ethical manner is very important, and it is not being done any favours by the anti-nuclear lobby trying to dumb it down to fit their agenda. They are abusing the issue just to try to add some fuel to their waning struggle.
So don’t fall for it. Treat the issue with the respect it demands. And don’t let anyone try to abuse it just to push their point across unless it’s actually relevant.
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Uranium mining not devasting? You have got to be kidding. It brings radio active material to the surface, contaminates water and soil, causes birth defects in local populations, kills vegetation, blows in the wind, ….. the list goes on. It is not safe to eat the fish from area lakes, not safe to eat the wildlfe…. Radio active material pollutes for many thousands of years. How far does this pollution travel? I don’t think anyone cares to check! Governments allow uranium companies to mine. The people, especially those living nearby suffer. Check out http://www.nfb.ca. Type uranium in the search window and watch the film! Any thinking person would never say that uranium mining is no more damaging than other types of mining!
Uranium mining not devasting? You have got to be kidding.
No, I am not. Do you really think I’d go into this with the mindset that all I’m saying is completely bogus? In that case the joke is on you.
It brings radio active material to the surface
As does any mining. As soon as you are down rooting around in rock, you free radon and its daughters. Doesn’t matter if you’re mining uranium for nuclear plants, or iron, copper and neodymium for windmills. As I said in the article: in the 70’s, Swedish iron miners got a 20-fold higher dose of radiation than does Australian uranium miners today.
contaminates water and soil
If you’re not careful, yes, as does any other mining. If you are taking proper precautions, then there’s no problem. And such precautions are a demand to even be allowed to start a mine, and you’re required to keep it that way lest you want your permit ripped to shreds and a big fat criminal charge on you. Uranium mining is no different there than the mining you need for the alternatives.
causes birth defects in local populations, kills vegetation, blows in the wind
Now you’re just padding the list to make it sound bad. Show me any scientific report that supports these claims. Published in a respectable scientic journal or with similar credibility.
I don’t think anyone cares to check!
Well you think wrong. Mining of all kinds in any modern nation is under strict monitoring from environmental authorities.
Any thinking person would never say that uranium mining is no more damaging than other types of mining!
How amusing… a “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
Your argument is passionate… but unfortunately you lack sorely in the facts department. The sterotypical image of greedy mining coporations, uncaring authorities and The Little Man™ getting trampled all over, is long since dead. It’s not even fit for pulp thrillers or B-action movies with Steven Segal any more. But you cling to it, because otherwise you don’t have a case for your standpoint. Your entire post is a Straw Man argument.
Michael – It is obvious that you have not visited the communities and spoken with the people affected. Did you bother to view the film I mentioned? All mining most certainly does not have the same amount of radiation. Uranium is much more deadly; and, will be for many thousands of years I would guess that you have a financial interest. There would be no other reason for your defence of this rotten industry.
Allow me a chuckle. 😀
If I had given given a cent for every time someone told me I must have an economic interrest in this, then I would have been rich by now. As it happens: I have none. Zip. Nothing. Me and everyone else in Nuclear Power Yes Please get absolutely nothing for this. We have no economic interrest, no old emotional baggage, nothing… except science and facts.
A movie? Anyone can make a movie and make the subject sound perfect or horrible, either way they choose. There must be hundreds of sob-movies out there where someone with a vested interrest makes a story there a few locals claim that every bad thing that has ever happened to them the past years must be because of Inudustry X. However, almost always, when asked if there is any proof of this, it always turns out something along the lines of “Well, no, not really… butthedoctorsrepaidoffIknowit!!! I believe very strongly it is their fault so there for it is… all the proof I need, NYAH!”. It always turns out that way when you start asking for cold hard facts.
Anyone can make a claim…. not everyone can back them up. It takes way more than a movie from some anti-mining/anti-uranium activist to come up with proof that uranium mining is all that which you claim.
If you truly believe that Canadian and Australian authorities allow destructive and dangerous activities to take place, then put your conviction where your mouth is and report them, because that would be negligence on their part. If you truly believe in your claims of corruption, death and destruction, stop yammering about it here and go to the proper instances. If you are right, then it’s an outrage and I’ll support you all the way!
But you won’t… because then the really hard questions will get asked. Questions you can’t answer by trying silly tricks like saying “I would guess that you have a financial interest. There would be no other reason for your defence of this rotten industry”. Questions which will make you come up extremely short on your claims.
Why do I support nuclear power?
Because 3-5 million people per year are dieing from air pollution. Even if your claims would be true, which you have no support for other than some movie and the claims of zealous activists who will say anything except the magic words “I might have been wrong”, it would still be a fart in a hurricane. Even here in Sweden where we have among the lowest emissions per capita in the industrialized world (despite having a huge energy spending in the dark months for heating our homes), 5000 people per year die from pulminory ailments. Even if your outlandish claims would be true, it would still be preferable to the ongoing disaster that is using energy from combustible sources, i.e. coal, oil, gas and burning biomass… which account for 85% of the world’s energy usage.
Nuclear energy must be allowed in the mix, or we’ll choke in a cloud of sooth.
Michael – May I use your technique? 3-5 million people are dying from air pollution.
Have you not heard? We, the evil cigarette smokers, are causing that pollution!
Just kidding! I find it interesting that you are from Sweden. One of the many films (Yes, sorry films), I viewed was by one of your countrymen. I believe it was called ‘No Act of God’. He held a very high position in the nuclear industry. With regard to the waste he said nothing but pure gold would contain it. With regard to the nuclear industry he said the best and the brightest minds were turning to alternatives.
Have you given any thought to the short life of a nuclear plant? How many years would it take to completely cover your country with old decommisioned plants?
Have you investigated the problems with containing the radio active material?
I have come to the conclusion that a very talented industry spokesman gave a briefing at your university. Did he convince you that ‘global warming’ is a real problem, and that it is caused by carbon? Or did he mention the HAARP program or that some of ‘responsible’ members of government allowed the nuclear industry to literally ‘blow up’ the Van Allen Belt? Did he mention that neighbouring planets in our solar sytem went through a warming cycle; and, that the earth is, in all probability, entering into a mini ice age? Have you by chance noticed the amount of bull crap that is published in the ‘scientific’ papers you seem to hold stock in? I’m getting old, and I learned many years ago not to trust anybody with a bunch of letters after their name. Their heads are so full of what someone else thinks that there is not room left for common sense. I wish you personally good fortune, but not your present endeavour. Please investigate all angles.
May I use your technique? 3-5 million people are dying from air pollution.
Have you not heard? We, the evil cigarette smokers, are causing that pollution!
Just kidding!
I am not amused. Air pollution world wide is a constant ongoing disaster happening. Burning combustibles release exhause gases and aerosol particles which cause millions of deaths! Even if we would be so cold as to ignore the human cost in this, the economics of this disaster is tremendous! What’s there to joke about that?
Have you given any thought to the short life of a nuclear plant? How many years would it take to completely cover your country with old decommisioned plants?
“Short” life? Do you concider 50-60 years “short”? Yes I have concidered the long term perspective… 4 plants (which we have now), with a total of 10 new reactors can hold Sweden with energy easilly for half a century. That’s hardly “covering” us. I don’t even understand what you’re getting at. Are you trying to say that if we use nuclear power we must litter the landscape with nuclear plants? Is that what are you getting at?
Have you investigated the problems with containing the radio active material?
Aye, I have indeed. The Swedish Nuclear Fuel and Waste Management company is just now putting the final touches to their KBS-3 deep repository storage method, after 30 years of research, drawing on experience from things such as nature’s own nuclear reactors which as kept the spent fuel there safe for 1.7 billion years.
I have come to the conclusion…
You mean you have dreamt up another straw man in order to not have to admit that maybe, just maybe we’re on to something. You have no basis for this “conclusion” other than that those who do not agree with you are wrong by default, just because they are.
…that a very talented industry spokesman gave a briefing at your university. Did he convince you that ‘global warming’ is a real problem, and that it is caused by carbon? Or did he mention the HAARP program or that some of ‘responsible’ members of government allowed the nuclear industry to literally ‘blow up’ the Van Allen Belt? Did he mention that neighbouring planets in our solar sytem went through a warming cycle; and, that the earth is, in all probability, entering into a mini ice age? Have you by chance noticed the amount of bull crap that is published in the ’scientific’ papers you seem to hold stock in?
Excuse me… but what the hell are you talking about?
I’m getting old, and I learned many years ago not to trust anybody with a bunch of letters after their name. Their heads are so full of what someone else thinks that there is not room left for common sense. I wish you personally good fortune, but not your present endeavour. Please investigate all angles.
We are investigating all angles. Several of us started out being opposed to nuclear power. Then we started to investigate all angles and found out that opponents of nuclear power often talk crap, to be honest. Most of it is FUD. Everything from claiming that nuclear reactors can blow up like bombs to fairytales that the slightest error can cause massive fallout. It’s so silly it boggles the mind once you find out that some claims are even physically impossible.
That is not common sense. Again you’re doing the “No True Scotsman” argument. You’re trying to dismiss knowledge and science with the utterly stupid reasoning that only those that have no knowledge of the subject at hand are those that have the “common sense” to see what’s right and what’s not. Trying to judge on a matter without knowledge and insight is not Common Sense. It is the absolute opposite of Commone Sense. It’s stupid, reckless and dangerous, nothing else.
Guess you’ll have to learn the hard way Michael. I just hope you don’t take all of your countrymen with you. Or maybe you figure you’ll be ‘out of there’ before problems arise. Wise men listen, consider, and learn.
Carol, I have to say that your last statement is baffling. “Learn the hard way”… What you have shown us is a propaganda movie and given a lot of your opinions. But not one single hard reference to any reputable study. Wise men search out the facts, learn how things work and then form a opinion. They don’t base their opinion on propaganda pieces without any hint of scientifically accurate content.
Forming a opinion on uranium mining from the material you have provides is no wiser than forming a opinion on world politics based on David Icke’s homepage http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/
Johan – No, the clip I provided is not propaganda. It is a cry from the people who have had their health, their lands, their water, their future generations, and their way of life destroyed. What can a community do when governments ignore them. It was an attempt to inform the outside world of the destructive impact forced upon their community; a hope for justice and to stop this insane practice. But of course, if it makes one uncomfortable the thing to do is label it propaganda. With regard to David Icke, I do not delve into the spirit world. I am a believer in the Holy Bible and we are warned against this type of communication. However, if you are not aware that other entities do indeed exist, you have more knowledge to gain. I have not watched the clip yet regarding the new world order, but I will. Again, if you don’t know what that is all about, it is time to learn; or, perhaps you are in favour. I am not. I was born free and wish to stay that way. Thank you for the referrence, although I’m sure it was meant to ridicule.
No, the clip I provided is not propaganda.
Since when did anyone that put out propaganda say anything other than “This is not propaganda… this is just information”?
Anyone can put a spin on a story.
Michael – Please, go to their community; eat the fish out of their lakes; eat the wildlife; swim in their lakes, drink the water out of their wells or rivers; then, just sit back and wait to die. If you are young, sit back and cross your fingers that your next baby is not deformed or mongoloid. Until you do that, your testimony does not even qualify as hearsay. These people have no reason to ‘spin a story’.
Then, as I said, take their story to the authorities and press charges. If not, then it’s empty talk. Pulling the “Oh but the authorities are corrupt and don’t care” card is bogus. It’s a weak excuse to not make good on your claims.
Dr. Rosalie Bertell, shown speaking to one group, was a member of the Environmental Protection Agency, which as I’m sure you know is part of the government. You can’t get much closer to the authorities than that. Many authorities are corrupt. Many authorities don’t care. You must live in a very special country if you don’t have the same problem.
It took me less than a minute of web searching before I found:
How do you expect me to take such a person seriously? If that is your appeal to authority, then you don’t have a case. It’s rubbish.
I must apologize. I did say Dr. Bertell was a member of the EPA instead of saying worked with the EPA. The fact remains that she is very knowledgeable. She studied the damaging effects of the nuclear industry, right down to low level radiation, most of her life. I don’t think you can deny her qualifications. You also ridicule chemtrails. The government now admits that it does indeed spray chemtrails. The reason they put forth is to control global warming, (another farce), and to protect the earth against the sun’s radiation. If they hadn’t allowed the partial destruction of earths protective layers by disrupting the Van Allen belt and the ongoing HAARP program; not to mention the aircraft that are allowed to fly in the ozone layer, that problem wouldn’t be so bad either. I’m not sure why you are in denial of any facts put forward. It most certainly is can’t be concern for the well being of the planet. It must be nice to have such faith in our governments. I do not. If I had to label the greater majority of government officials, I would be inclined to use the words incredibly stupid, criminally insane, or both. I believe it is very foolish to do something that has been proven so detrimental and permanent.
Carol, I’m sorry but this is a site devoted to science, not conspiracy theories. If what you write above is what you believe… then I will not waste more time talking to you since these are matters that have long since been debunked as nonsense.
You’re the one with the accusations of wrongdoings, then you’re the one that has the burden of proof. When you put forth something that has not already been proven false as a nutty conspiracy theory, then you might get a reply.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/uranium-is-it-a-country/
This doc proves that current uranium mining in Australian is not environmentally safe.
Well as I have said in earlier comments: if you believe this is the be all and end all of arguments, take it to the environmental agencies of the countries involved and have them stop it.
Mining is a dirty enterprise, make no mistake. Mining done wrong have caused, can and does cause tremendous evironmental damage. But there is no single answer for all mining operations that will say if a particular mine will be unacceptably dirty. And uranium is no special case there.